Ethical Question

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Just My Humble 2 Cents Worth

Box Broker, you are between the proverbial rock and hard place, and it's not a nice place to be.

For two reasons you're going to have to pay the carrier the full amount. First, you will become a bad debt to the carrier and he will have the right to report that to Equifax and D&B. Second, and more importantly, if your customer has any intention at all of pursuing a claim, you will not have a leg to stand on if you haven't paid that bill as a carrier is not obligated to honour a claim if the freight invoice has not been paid. Be painfully aware, that if you or your customer pursues a claim and the carrier agrees to honour it, the cargo in question becomes the property of the carrier. If it has already been dispensed or disposed of, you are behind the eight ball. It gets to be a whole lot more fun if the load originated or finaled in the U.S. as Carmack applies. Like it or not though, those are the rules of the game.

There has also been a bit of hashing here about breaking the seal and how that's a big no-no if your C-TPAT/CSA carrier. You've been led a bit astray on that matter. It's exactly because I am C-TPAT/CSA certified that I can break that seal. As a carrier, I simply have to follow the rules that I have established, and the government has approved, for breaking a seal and it's no questions asked. It's not a violation at all as some have indicated.

Some have even mentioned suing the carrier. What are you going to sue him for .... delivering on time? Yes, I am quite aware that "Exclusive Use" was written all over the load confirmation. Show me a legal definition of "Exclusive Use" in transportation, and I'll agree that you might have a case.

So, what are you left with? A customer that is not too happy and a carrier that can't follow simple instructions.

What are your options? If it's a customer relationship that you want to keep, you're going to have to go there, hat in hand, and admit that you screwed the pooch on this one. You made a bad choice in carrier selection, promise that it won't happen again, and show him how you are going to back up your promise. You may even have/want to discount the rate and apportion the loss to goodwill. (A good accountant will write it off to bad debt. The government will give you a break for it on your taxes, and your customer will never know, provided your collections people don't spill the beans.)

As for the carrier, it's not like you are EVER going to load him again, I'd be splashing his raggedy a$$ name all over these pages so every other stand up guy that uses this site will know exactly who not to use.

It would be nice if there was a simple, clean cut way to deal with situations like this but the fact of the matter is that they are just plain ugly :(

At the end of the day you can choose to deal with carriers like myself that will do the right thing when we see "Exclusive Use" on a carrier load confirmation, or you can use people like you did. The difference will be in how much profit you want to take home.

This is more writting than I have done in a long, long time. Again, just my humble 2 cents worth.

Michael.
 
Mike, as far as the seal breaking was concerned, it was misunderstood.

a) even if it is allowed as part of being CT-PAT/CSA, if the customer doesn't accept it, it doesn't matter ... and they take it seriously

b) you still have to be subject to audit and one of the things you would need to do is to make sure that incompatible products are not loaded together ... as part of safety to people and to the road

Not that this would likely have been a CSA carrier anyway ...

In the end, I'd probably be talked off the fence and pay the carrier and absorb any loss. And yes, he/she should be naming the carrier at this point.
 
Without posting the carriers name, and perhaps allowing him to explain his side of the story (If he's on this site). I'm beginning to feel that this broker is not giving us the full story.If you are going the write a post about unethical practices in our industy you have the let us know the carrier.

just my 2 cents
 
Michael L, I have to take exception to the closing paragraph in your well written, thoughtful post. It assumes that the broker used the carrier in question strictly to increase his profit margin on this shipment. Although certainly possible, there is nothing disclosed so far that substaniates that. Like most freight brokers, I have had many instances where I've paid a premium rate to an established, large carrier only to receive substandard service. Most brokers know, or should know, that price alone will not guarantee good service. In this case, in order to maintain his customer I hope the broker did have a healthy profit on the shipment because it certainly looks like he will be forced to eat a large portion of it due to the actions of an unscrupulous carrier.
 
I too, find that carrier pricing is not usually indicative of the service you get. With reputable players, it all has to do with balance and what works for them.

I actually find that when we're stuck and go to the Link and the truck goes to the 'highest bidder', more often than not the service is lousy.

But we too don't focus on the lowest priced capacity out there, if there is a partnership we'll usually pay a bit of a premium as long as the customer is palatable to it. If the specific customer is more price driven, we have no choice.
 
This post is going on 4 pages now without 1 specific question being answered........Pay the carrier what you agreed on, and be happy your freight delivered when you were told it would be.
 
MADBOOKER said:
This post is going on 4 pages now without 1 specific question being answered........Pay the carrier what you agreed on, and be happy your freight delivered when you were told it would be.
Click to expand...

if the carrier didn't give you exclusive use as promised and broke the seal, re-negotiate a rate, then pay it.

or, if your receiver will file a claim, start the claim process.

& tell us who the carrier is.
 
theman:
Other than hazmat auditing, there is no audit trail that determines compatible and incompatible cargoes. As a carrier, hazmat aside,we can load anything we want with anything else we want. The kicker comes when the customer says "No way are you shipping my stuff with that". Due dilligence on the carrier's part will make sure that doesn't happen. We have customers that tell us "If you ship it with anything else, you own it.". That pretty much spells it out in black and white.

loaders:
Take exception if you wish. Perhaps I was poorly written, and for that I apologize. I make no such assumption at all. I am simply stating that there is a profit, or price, difference between knowing you got it right, and hoping you got it right. That's all. There is nothing more to be read into that paragraph than that.

MADBOOKER:
I suspect Box Broker has his reasons for not revealing the carrier's name (and believe me, it's not me). His post is simply asking what you would do were you faced with the same situation. Perhaps there is an inkling in someone's article of something he did not think of that would help him mitigate this ugly event. It would be my suggestion that perhaps he does not want any of us to judge the carrier alone, but to examine and comment on the entire situation. Only BB can tell us for sure.

Sometimes, despite the best intentions of mice and men, things just get FUBAR.
 
I have been reading, but staying away from adding, to this thread. However, I too would like to know who is busting seals. Why the avoidance on naming the carrier?
 
A lot of our customer contracts spell it out (not to break the seal without prior notification except customs) because it is a problem. Would you want to go to the store and buy a carton of milk that smells like cigarettes? Also, in some cases, incompatible products consist of products which by themselves pose no risk, but in combination with other things sometimes can. Can you believe CITRUS is one of those things?

I actually believe your posts are well thought out though, and even though I don't put my name out here, I know you know who I am and I can vouch for the fact that you're not that way for sure.
 
I agree with PackRat....let us know who the unethical carrier was....ethics states - do not tamper with a seal on a dedicated load unless you have written authority by your customer.
 
To all who have replied on the original thread - thank you.

This topic has been a good read - with many good arguments and valuable opinions. But now I see this thread going in another direction - a potentially negative one - and the original poster - box broker - is nowhere to be found....

Reality is we likely will never know who the carrier was. This member has not responded - nor has he/she been back to the forum in a week.

I think it best to leave this thread alone - do not post anything further. I will leave the thread OPEN - to give box broker a chance to reveal the information we all want to know. There is nothing further to comment or add here. We are starting to get "touchy" with other member's replies here - hence my reason for piping in on this.

Thank you
 
First off I wish to apologize for not getting back to the forum. Unfortunately I had to deal with a personal family matter and that took me out of the loop completely.
Secondly I wish to thank everyone for their input I had no idea this would turn into such a thread.

First off a little bit of background about myself. I have been a freight broker for the past 15 years. The last time I took on a new customer was 3 years ago. My oldest customer has been with me for over 14 years.
Even if I told you my name it would mean nothing to most of you due to the fact that I pay my bills promptly and very seldom have issues.

The reason I brought this up was that over the years I have built a business on honesty and integrity. I have been short sheeted by a few carriers over the years but have always paid my bill and generally on time. I continually have carriers calling me asking for freight. I have been moving the same freight for years and generally with the same carriers.

This time I was thrown a curve ball by one of my accounts who required some LTL freight move as a FTL. I have done this many times in the past and I have had carriers ask if they could put additional freight on the truck and save both me and my customer money. "Yes I pass every bit of the savings onto my customer" again the honesty and integrity thing again" This is how I keep my accounts. Sometimes we say yes and sometimes we say no it depends on the circumstances.

I am quite sure that even when the answer was no things were put on the trailer that shouldn't have been put on. Not every time but sometimes. Welcome to the real world.

What makes this shipment different was that the Owner of the company gave me his word he would not put anything on the trailer and when I found out about it before the freight was delivered he insisted that the trailer only had my freight on it. It did not take me long to figure out I had a problem and I can tell you from experience that I did not need any headaches. Such as the carrier holding my freight hostage etc.) I notified my customer before the freight was even delivered that I was sure there was a problem. Again that "honesty stuff". My customer is completely understanding and sympathetic to my problem. There problem is that the receiver was ultimately paying for the freight.

This account represents about $750,000.00 in annual sales to me; they pay their bills in 7 days and always treat me with respect. I am not going to bill my customer any portion of this no matter what happens. I will eat it all. Normally I would try to negotiate with the carrier some sort of compensation to pass on to my customer but this time I was treated with such ignorance from the carrier that I have had enough. It is one thing to be told an occasional fib by a dispatcher or customer service representative but when the owner himself lies and tells his people to lie that is where I draw the line.

Many people have asked who is the carrier. I have been advised by my lawyer not to mention the name at this time. However I promise I will reveal the name once this is settled.

I am sure that most of your answers are best intended but this one I will take to my grave.

Again I apologize for not replying earlier.
 
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