How to Stop Double Brokerage

[frtbrkr]

Let me get this straight....

frtbrkr, you are saying that the carrier that hauled a re-brokered load where the entity that gave them the load has no intention to pay for the move - that they should have predicted it was a re-brokered shipment and either not taken the load or now that it's long delivered they should give up their right under the law to pursue claim for payment from the shipper because they should have known better? What are you smoking? My follow up question: please would you share some with me?

I try hard not to say inappropriate things to members here, but I'm kind of at a loss. I only had to involve myself in a half dozen or so shipments (in 10+ years) where there were additional parties involved and it was usually several months after delivery that the shit hits the fan... In all cases myself (the broker) paid the transporting carrier so our client didn't have to. My job (a legitimate freight broker) is literally to ensure all parties to the transaction are satisfied.

Keep well,
Mike

Thanks Mike

For the record, i don't drink, let alone smoke.

You paid the AC (Actual Carrier) because you want to protect your customers from getting harassed or worse from loosing money. Obviously we do the same when we have no choice (i still wish you review and comment on my other thread)

Paying the AC when they are hammering you with the law is a tactical smart buisness move, that's not the topic.

When the AC cant go to the shipper or receiver (QC, or for any other reason), shall we "feel" for them? should we pay them? should we try to help them? or should we let them go fly a kite?

If you think we should asset them, please explain why. I'm more then willing to get back that "feeling" which i held for so long.

 

[LrgCar]

At this point, you may have just asked what your favorite color is, red or blue. Emotions are subjective, what you feel towards something varies and has no impact on what's right or wrong. This isn't an emotional business, what you or I feel toward another entity's financial loss is irrelevant to their situation, now what you can do for them whether that be sharing an experience or helping them collect is really what matters and really the purpose of this forum. We are all here to help each other, I dont care if you should have known better, if you are in a position where someone has done you wrong, I will do whatever to the best of my ability help you. Im sure others can agree with me.

 

[frtbrkr]

At this point, you may have just asked what your favorite color is, red or blue. Emotions are subjective, what you feel towards something varies and has no impact on what's right or wrong. This isn't an emotional business, what you or I feel toward another entity's financial loss is irrelevant to their situation, now what you can do for them whether that be sharing an experience or helping them collect is really what matters and really the purpose of this forum. We are all here to help each other, I dont care if you should have known better, if you are in a position where someone has done you wrong, I will do whatever to the best of my ability help you. Im sure others can agree with me.

My feeling towards that entity's financial loss is totally linked to what they "actually" knew when taking the load.

In cases where thy didn't knew or didn't have a way to know, i do feel for them.

When they are knowingly complicit by enabling the DB in putting the honest Load broker or shipper/receiver at risk, i have no feelings for them whatsoever.

And you say?

 

[MLCAR]

its also mutually beneficial. Help the carrier who actually did the hauling get paid, whom in turn will choose to move your freight the next time you need a carrier. You have secured a carrier for this lane and now have the confidence in that carrier for future business. Your customer sees you as a professional and dependable partner who doesn't just wash their hands of a situation when things get sticky.

relationship, relationship, relationship is or should be the motto of the freight brokerage business

^ sums it up.

 

[LrgCar]

You can't be serious. How does the carrier that took the shipment put your shipper at risk by taking a shipment from a DB? YOU the freight broker and YOUR customer put yourself at risk by allowing anyone but the intended carrier to pick up.

 

[MikeJr]

Thanks Mike

For the record, i don't drink, let alone smoke.

You paid the AC (Actual Carrier) because you want to protect your customers from getting harassed or worse from loosing money. Obviously we do the same when we have no choice (i still wish you review and comment on my other thread)

Paying the AC when they are hammering you with the law is a tactical smart buisness move, that's not the topic.

When the AC cant go to the shipper or receiver (QC, or for any other reason), shall we "feel" for them? should we pay them? should we try to help them? or should we let them go fly a kite?

If you think we should asset them, please explain why. I'm more then willing to get back that "feeling" which i held for so long.

We paid the AC because we gave the load to someone who re-brokered the load. My job (as a broker) is to ensure all parties to the transaction are satisfied. It's literally my actual job, the reason I'm involved at all. In the 3PL business model there isn't supposed to be a 4PL, the fact that they are there is completely my fault. Even if I was dupped.

Feelings? They play no part in business. It's sure hard sometimes.

I have a doc apt to get to, I will check out your other thread for sure.

Keep well,
Mike

 

[frtbrkr]

We paid the AC because we gave the load to someone who re-brokered the load. My job (as a broker) is to ensure all parties to the transaction are satisfied. It's literally my actual job, the reason I'm involved at all. In the 3PL business model there isn't supposed to be a 4PL, the fact that they are there is completely my fault. Even if I was dupped.

Feelings? They play no part in business. It's sure hard sometimes.

I have a doc apt to get to, I will check out your other thread for sure.

Keep well,
Mike

Wishing you only the best at the doc.

Are you telling me that even if the AC will not (or cannot) take legal action will you still pay them out of good will? simply because you are doing the right think?

And will you do it even if they know in advance it's a DB load?

I hope you file that as donation instead of Freight expense or COGS.

 

[frtbrkr]

its also mutually beneficial. Help the carrier who actually did the hauling get paid, whom in turn will choose to move your freight the next time you need a carrier. You have secured a carrier for this lane and now have the confidence in that carrier for future business. Your customer sees you as a professional and dependable partner who doesn't just wash their hands of a situation when things get sticky.

^ sums it up.

it's a good investment, i agree.

What it's lane, i don't do often or a lane which i already good carriers?

Should i still pay them with no ROI?

 

[frtbrkr]

You can't be serious. How does the carrier that took the shipment put your shipper at risk by taking a shipment from a DB? YOU the freight broker and YOUR customer put yourself at risk by allowing anyone but the intended carrier to pick up.

Well.

The Broker is not a fault. they had no way to know that it would be DB'd. There is nothing they could have done to avoid it.

The shier is at fault sometimes (see my other thread) and so is the AC in most cases.

This thred as about the AC's part.

 

[LrgCar]

The law protects the AC, so why would it be any other way? It doesn't matter if you knew or not, as the 3PL Negligence is not a defense, this has been used many times in courts and it doesn't fly. If you as a freight broker are negligent, maybe it's time to find a new career. I just can't wrap my head around this whole approach of victim blaming, which in essence this really is, it had nothing to do with feelings.

 

[frtbrkr]

The law protects the AC, so why would it be any other way? It doesn't matter if you knew or not, as the 3PL Negligence is not a defense, this has been used many times in courts and it doesn't fly. If you as a freight broker are negligent, maybe it's time to find a new career. I just can't wrap my head around this whole approach of victim blaming, which in essence this really is, it had nothing to do with feelings.

The law is clear, granted.

In the event, where the AC doesn't have legal means or the money to use an attorney to collect, do i have an ethical obligation to pay them even if they know in advance that its' a DB load?

If it's a pickup is in QC where the law clearly is it he side of the shipper, do i have an ethical obligation to pay the AC even if they know in advance that its' a DB load?

 

[tasuinam]

As a carrier - my two cents worth
1. There are names out there and flags - most of us do not haul those laods - the money is way below what you actually need anyway
2. Sometimes you cannot tell - you ID on behalf of - that's normal as we a couple of times got loaded with the wrong load because we go to that shipper often on behalf of various brokers
3. The DB's are good at what they do - I have never hauled something that crosses on another carrier's PAPS/PARS
4. Canada only loads are very hard to know - unless you know

The acutual carriers - all of us do our best to avoid any DB ... we want to get paid in the end

 

[loaders]

I think what got this discussion sidetracked, off the rails or whatever you want to call it, was the introduction of emotions, whether it be empathy, sympathy, etc,. Fortunately in my opinion, there is no place whatsoever in business for emotions. Lots of room for principles and ethical behaviour in your day to day activities, but none for emotions. Reflecting on someone else’s , or your own misfortune is best left for a glass of fine scotch with your feet up, well after business hours are over. As Tom Hanks so eloquently stated in the movie A League of Their Own……”there’s no crying in baseball”. The same can very well be said for transportation.

 

[frtbrkr]

N

As a carrier - my two cents worth
1. There are names out there and flags - most of us do not haul those laods - the money is way below what you actually need anyway
2. Sometimes you cannot tell - you ID on behalf of - that's normal as we a couple of times got loaded with the wrong load because we go to that shipper often on behalf of various brokers
3. The DB's are good at what they do - I have never hauled something that crosses on another carrier's PAPS/PARS
4. Canada only loads are very hard to know - unless you know

The acutual carriers - all of us do our best to avoid any DB ... we want to get paid in the end

Nice post.

1. Happy to hear.
2. This is the most sickest way to streamline communication and it doesn't allow to solve DB. As I explained a few times above, we have different ways to ensure the right freight is being loaded, if its working for us it could work for others. This way it would hopefully eliminate or atleats drastically decrease DB.
3. The way to go.
4. I agree, unless they ask to ID as the DB or you know the DB has no LB authorities.

All in all, I'm not saying the always AC knows. In case they do know or knew, the law is clear and so is my none-emphaty.

 

[frtbrkr]

I think what got this discussion sidetracked, off the rails or whatever you want to call it, was the introduction of emotions, whether it be empathy, sympathy, etc,. Fortunately in my opinion, there is no place whatsoever in business for emotions. Lots of room for principles and ethical behaviour in your day to day activities, but none for emotions. Reflecting on someone else’s , or your own misfortune is best left for a glass of fine scotch with your feet up, well after business hours are over. As Tom Hanks so eloquently stated in the movie A League of Their Own……”there’s no crying in baseball”. The same can very well be said for transportation.

The law is the law.

Ethics and principals are based on emotions.

You act to others based on how you feel if they did the right think or not.

On a DB load, the main culprit is the DB company, the LB is the least one.

The shipper is part to blame if the communcatiion was done properly, the AC is equally to blame in those instances where they knew what they where going into.

The way industry runs now, it leave the least blaming party to own up to something others had done.

I opened another thread about the shippers responsbility, this one is about the AC.

 

[theman]

I think the actual carriers are the real problem. If one is hauling a regular lane there is no way that one doesn't smell something off when a small company out of nowhere has freight from a major shipper.

The problem is that carriers are reactive when they have a truck somewhere ... the double broker scammers know it too.

 

[MikeJr]

Wishing you only the best at the doc.

Are you telling me that even if the AC will not (or cannot) take legal action will you still pay them out of good will? simply because you are doing the right think?

And will you do it even if they know in advance it's a DB load?

I hope you file that as donation instead of Freight expense or COGS.

If a transporting carrier does not call the shipper, receiver or myself (any broker) for payment I wouldn't know they exist and could not pay them. Once they exercise their legal right to demand payment for services rendered they must be paid. You can let it fall on the shipper if you like, but you'll likely lose a customer.

I see where you are going with this, don't get me wrong. You are saying that if a carrier knew the load was re-brokered they should understand that there could be increased risk for non payment and they should bear some or all of that increased risk. It's easy to agree with you but the laws currently and will forever protect the entity that does the work.

Keep well,
Mike

 

[frtbrkr]

If a transporting carrier does not call the shipper, receiver or myself (any broker) for payment I wouldn't know they exist and could not pay them. Once they exercise their legal right to demand payment for services rendered they must be paid. You can let it fall on the shipper if you like, but you'll likely lose a customer.

I see where you are going with this, don't get me wrong. You are saying that if a carrier knew the load was re-brokered they should understand that there could be increased risk for non payment and they should bear some or all of that increased risk. It's easy to agree with you but the laws currently and will forever protect the entity that does the work.

Keep well,
Mike

Hi Mike.

If the Carrier has the legal power and the means to exercise it, then obviously we'll do a cost/benefit analyses considering the relationship with our customer and the amount of business they give us, that's out of the question.

In the event they can't collect but still trying or crying for payment, would you still do it?

My issue isn't as much as they knew it's an increased risk, that's "their" business decisions as how they extend credit to their customers. We - as brokers - also take risks. Can we come back to the carrier and ask to credit our payment in the case we didn't get paid from the shipper or receiver? i wish this would be the case, it would have leveled the playing field.

My issue is not as much that they took an increased risk, but rather they knowingly put me - the LB - at risk. They felt secured that they will get paid by the shipper, they knew full well that the LB will end up paying that bill in he wants to remain in business. The LB is the least blaming party at any DB situation, but the AC has no problem in letting the LB them swallow it. The LB doesn't make that much profit on a loads for it to pay the full cost of a truck twice.

How the AC sleeps well at night knowing they are helping the DB screwing the honest LB is beyond me

And that's why i say:
- When the AC really didn't knew, I'll go out of my way to ensure they get paid, legal or not, adhering to my Code of Ethics.
- When the AC knew or should have known, if their legal attempts is risking the relationship with our customer, I'll do a cost/benefit analyses and act accordingly.
- When the AC knew or should have known and i have ways to outsmart the legal attempts (there are plenty), I'll do so with my full conscious knowing that i live by my Code of Ethics.

The constant bombarding of threads on this site about which DB does not pay, leaves the impression that those DB loads where the DB does pays, isn't a problem. Carrier on this site, give the impression that it's right to take a load from a DB as long as they pay, what i'm saying here is that it's NOT right even if the DB pays. If you do it anyway, you are assisting the DB in his unethical behavior.

 

[MikeJr]

I'm not sure I have much more to add to this thread myself. I do not think that any legit carrier would take a load knowing they would have to chase a shipper/carrier/broker for payment because the person they got the load from wouldn't pay them. The amount of time and effort spent on these collections quickly erodes the margin gained. It's just not worth it.

Keep well,
Mike

 

[frtbrkr]

I'm not sure I have much more to add to this thread myself. I do not think that any legit carrier would take a load knowing they would have to chase a shipper/carrier/broker for payment because the person they got the load from wouldn't pay them. The amount of time and effort spent on these collections quickly erodes the margin gained. It's just not worth it.

Keep well,
Mike

Valid point, sometimes they will do if they are desperate.

I've spoken to a carrier who just PM'd me to call him about this very three, he raised another valid point.

Why does the Loadlink allow Carriers to post loads? they don't allow Brokers to post equipment and rightfully so. The same should apply to Carriers

Carriers have equipment's only. If the shipper or an LB gave them a load and they cant cover it, they should be honest with their customer by telling them they cant cover it.

The carrier an also file for DOT Broker authority and/or provincial Broker authority and open an account with the Loadlink as a Load Broker. This would probably decrease DB's and allow AC's to have more loads for more profit and get paid!

Another option would be to AC's to ask the DB's for their provincial or US Brokerage authority prior to accepting the load, if they don't have one then you know you are in for trouble.

The way the industry operates now is that the Law makes the shipper responsible but the industry makes the LB responsible. where is the net value of such a setup?