How would you handle this?

M

Manitoba Moose

Member
Jul 27, 2009
322
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16
Otterburne, MB
10
Gave an LTL flatbed load to a carrier from PQ to BC.

We discussed the load c/w rate, load times, and delivery and was assured that this was no problems. Pick up in Montreal on Friday, Jan 28th, 1st a.m. and delivery in Victoria on Feb 3rd.

Load was picked up on time and when we checked where the truck was on Monday, he was still loading other LTL in Trenton, ON. We knew immediately that we had a problem. Delivery on the 3rd would be impossible. He asked if delivery on the 4th would be a problem.

After confirming with our client, it was agreed that delivery on the 4th would be acceptable and relayed that to the truck. On the 3rd, we are advised that he is having issues delivering other LTL in Calgary and could we again move the delivery to Sat.

Now our client is getting pissed because they have to pay overtime to get him unloaded and they need the material on site 2 days ago. So they agree (what choice do we have) to unload Saturday. He gets there Saturday and the crane guy to unload doesn't show up and the truck has to wait until Monday to get unloaded.

So he sends us an email wanting us to revise the confirmation to include waiting time.

My first thought is you gotta be F N kidding me and telling him to go F*** himself for his arrogance and having the balls to even suggest there be waiting time. I haven't replied to his email yet because I don't want to say something I may regret later. "Discretion is the better part of valour" or something like that...

So my question is, how would you handle this?

Look forward to hearing from both carriers and brokers and everyone's spin on this.
 
This is about 50 hours out of a 70 hour week, depending on when the driver started his cycle and assuming no weather delays, never mind other drops in between. You get one snag anywhere and you are pooched.

The first lesson is: there's no time guarantee on LTL unless you are paying truckload and there's nothing else on the truck. However, even with the timeline given for delivery, that would have been a push to get to Victoria by the 3rd for sure. When you are talking crane appointment, my experience has been you have to make that puppy a truckload. You can't guarantee a crane appointment for LTL generally. The moment you miss the appointment, you are on the hook for a backcharge claim. I did a lot of flatbed and crane appointment freight when I was at Firm for a very large customer and any flatbed carrier worth their spit would probably tell you they wouldn't touch crane appointment LTL unless it was moving as a truckload, especially given that it had to be on the other side of the country by a certain date.

As for waiting time, yes, that is ballsy for them to ask that. I would tell them there would be a backcharge pending for missing the crane appointment. If it wasn't on the confirmation as such, you may be pooched. Collecting waiting time charges should be the least of that carrier's concerns.

Flatbed LTL only really works when there's no appointments involved.
 
Waiting time

Moose,

I think you both share responsibility here since neither party allowed sufficient time for an LTL delivery over this distance considering our normal winter conditions.
Specifically, what are they looking for? How much money are we talking about here? How did the delay with unloading negatively impact their schedule, and what would they have done if they hadn't had the Saturday delivery option? They might have been hanging around Victoria in any event, and after 50 hours driving time, the driver would probably have had to reset. Regardless, with the information you supplied, I think that it should be a wash since employees of both companies seem to have failed in their tasks.
 
I've been on both sides of this fence. With LTL we know specific deliveries are always difficult and sometimes have to be adjusted. Eventhough things had to be altered on the way the carrier was told to be on the island Saturday am. Once you're on the island you really don't have an alternative. For me I would tell the carrier it is a two way street and things do happen and offer a couple of hundred dollars for having to sit theweekend..only fair
 
Manitoba Moose

I do not want to piss you off but here goes.

The carrier is at fault because he misses his appointment and is late.
The appointments are re scheduled at an agreed upon time by both parties.
The crane is more than late , it does not show up for two days.

How does the fact that the crane was two days late then not become an issue?

I'm pretty sure that your client was not going to pay double time to unload on a saturday, hence the delivery date simply a ploy to make sure the driver is finally on site.

As for the carrier , can he demonstrate that he had a return load that could be picked up over the week end. If not , little cahnge in his situation.
If there was a return load available 24/7 than he is inconvenienced by the no show crane.

I am in full agreement with those that posted a reply in that LTL with CRANE appointments is a no no. There are too many varaibles to mess things up, case in point.
 
Thanks for all the views.

And I never get pissed when I ask for an opinion. Like the old saying goes - Opinions are like Assholes... everybody's got one.

Thanks for all that replied. It's very much appreciated and very informative. It's amazing the different views we get based on the the varied experience this board.

I've replied to his email stating that based on all discussions and confirmation, there would be no waiting time paid. If he would have done what he promised and been there as scheduled, he would have been unloaded and this would not be an issue.

That's my decision and I'm gonna stick to it... lol
 
my two cents

here's my two cents.... seeing as how i have to pay wait time for ltl that isn't offloaded on time, which I do and seeing as how carriers miss pick ups and deliveries on a regular basis ( most of them not even knowing the truck is late until i tell them and then not having any decent excuse ) i would agree that he gets nothing additional.

Yes, appt with crane.. not such a smart idea, BUT, the carrier agreed to the terms of the contract and a contract is just that. people say that delivery times do not apply to LTL loads, but that is false, they apply to the load once both parties agree on it... end of story. the carrier in my case, should be fined for missing the delivery appt and as for the crane, whether he showed up saturday is irrelevant. First, it was caused by the carrier missing his appt by numerous days, secondly, should the broker have said monday is the earliest, he would have had to wait then.

As I have stated in my past posts. I pay carriers for wait time, dead runs, etc... so that I am fair. at this same time, I have been way too lieniant in issuing fines for drivers just arriving whenever they want to. if they called me to say they were behind, I would probably work with them more, but if I had to call to find out this issue, it shows me they had no intention of making the delivery on time and that they didn't care about my business.
 
Crane appointment

I respect manitoba Moose's opinion and he is the one who should decide what to do. I am sure there are innumerable details that he has not had the time to divulge that affect his decision.

What Irks me here is Friendly broker's post.

Here are the facts as we know them:

All parties agree that even though the carrier is late , there will be a crane to unload him on Saturday.
Take this as a codicil if you want to the original contract, Taking into consideration the delivery terms which were not met.
The codicil now takes precedence as these are the latest terms you have all agreed to n'ece pas?
The carrier does not get unloaded because the crane is not there. The mutually agreed to modified contractual terms are not met by the consignee, they are therefore in default of the codicil.

Yes it is true that none of this would have occured if the carrier was on time. But he was not and that is why the new delivery terms were set.
Now the consignee is in default of the terms he promised.
The consignee's default simply does not become a mute point because the carrier was originally late.

If I was the carrier and did little business with manitoba Moose and had a pick up that could be met before monday ( highly unlikely) I would certainly pursue the issue. If I dealt with him on a regular bassis , I would not have the gall to ask for waiting time.
 
Amusing and Informative

Manitoba Moose,

I certainly agree with you regarding opinions. Ironically, I believe they are like any other commodity, they're worth every penny you pay for them! Perhaps none more so than my own, lest I be branded an egotistical freak.

This has been a very informative thread for me, and I hold a great appreciation for the collegial exchange of ideas, and the aforementioned opinions. However, in all of this, I couldn't help from imagining myself in the driver's seat, driving through the snow at night. I'm sure that most of us have been there, including working with a dispatcher or broker in whom we had no confidence. I never lose sight of the fact that I get to sleep in my own bed every night, and enjoy the comforts that the people that play a very important part in all our success don't get to do with any regularity.
 
Well i as a carrier would never accept a LTL shipment with a crane appointment. If its that sensitive for delivery it is FTL. Secondly anybody accepting a load going to Vanc.Island for a crane appointment or any part of BC for that matter in my opinion has rocks for brains. There are just to many variables weather - BC road closures- any more than 2 snow flurries and they have to declare a state of emergency in the lower mainland and then you have the ever so dependant (not) BC ferries to deal with. I also make it a condition of accepting any load with appointments that i will not be responsible for missed appointment times or associated backcharges unless its pure neglect on my or my companies part. Traffic delays, weather, mechanical breakdowns etc. are not considered by me as a reason for for backcharges or penalties as long as they can be substansiated.
 
Our conversation with the carrier happened 2 days prior to pick up. He knew all the facts including the delivery date and crane appointment on Feb 3rd and agreed to all the terms and conditions 2 days before. Also, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the rate ($4,400.00 - 30' - 10,750#).

If he didn't agree with the delivery crane appointment for LTL, then he should of just said "No thanks". But he agreed to the terms and conditions and, in my humble opinion, it was his job to ensure it was done.

And we, as well as our client, understand that problems can arise at this time of year, ie: storms, road conditions, breakdowns, etc. We can all make provisions for this but, for him to accept this and then not living up to the agreed upon terms is what pisses off probably all brokers. Especially when we have to chase the carrier for the truck location each and every day.
 
Rob said:
Is that really a good rate for 30 feet I am asking because 3/4 of a trailer for a buck and a half a mile to western Canada seems awful cheap to me but if he took it he has to live with it!!
Click to expand...

Rob, don't forget the cost of the boat ride to/from Vancouver Island. In my estimation the rate and the service matched each other.
 
Guess i didnt explain myself properly. If he knew the conditions and accepted them yes he should keep up his end of the deal. And no i dont think he should be paid extra under the circumstances. As for the rate i would think twice about taking 30 feet of trailer to Edmonton/ calgary for $4400.00. 30 feet to Vanc. Island is worth at least $7500.00 considering the $750.00 ferry ride and the fact that you waste a whole day going and coming if everything goes good. With little to no chance of reloading over there.
 
Double Standard

My 2 cents here is, had the crane showed up Saturday and not the truck I'am sure that the crane would have been paid, why the double standard. We hear this all the time with crane appointments, that everyone takes them seriously. Why can't trucks and drivers get the same type of respect for appointment times !!!
 
bubba-one said:
My 2 cents here is, had the crane showed up Saturday and not the truck I'am sure that the crane would have been paid, why the double standard. We hear this all the time with crane appointments, that everyone takes them seriously. Why can't trucks and drivers get the same type of respect for appointment times !!!
Click to expand...

The reason cranes/operators can charge and get paid is simple...they are in demand. Maybe when the trucking industry quits throwing meat in the seat we might have a chance of being in demand also.The majority of operators are IUOE members so they get paid regardless. Saturdays are double time also.
 
bubba-one said:
My 2 cents here is, had the crane showed up Saturday and not the truck I'am sure that the crane would have been paid, why the double standard. We hear this all the time with crane appointments, that everyone takes them seriously. Why can't trucks and drivers get the same type of respect for appointment times !!!
Click to expand...

But had the crane showed up and not the truck, do you think the transport company would of offered to pay for it ?
 
This is going to start something I'm sure...BUT.....what does the rate have to do with it after the fact? If the carrier agreed to do the job and agreed to the rate then the onus is on them to provide the service they committed to. (Excusing any weather/mechanical/extenuating circumstances beyond the carriers control of course.)
 
Packrat, I'm total agreement.

He agreed to do this at that rate in that timeframe. Why all the crap now?

And regarding the rate, again, nothing wrong with it. $4,400 for 30' means that he made over 10 grand going to the coast with his other LTL to Calgary and then LTL from Calgary to BC so, get off your high horses bitching the rate...

The rate wasn't the original questions. It was basically would you pay him waiting time when he shows up 2 days late?

Sorry for the rant but sometimes these get off topic pretty quick...
 
My 2 cents

If the carrier accepted the freight with the delivery then he should have been more careful in choosing his other LTL freight. Each order on the trailer is a commitment and each commitment should be fulfilled. The carrier obviously wanted to maximize revenue. His failure to make sure any freight added wouldn't jepardize the delivery appointments has to bear some of the blame. The carrier's decisions impaired his ability to fulfill the commitment to Moose and as such, the carrier should accept the cost.

In a case where the freight is accepted and loaded before the appointment is made and then the appointment is unreasonable, the opposite of the above should be true.
 
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